I’ve known Mike Foster for awhile. He’s one of my close friends. I’ve met Jud Wilhite several times and feel a love for him as well. I can tell you this. Both these guys are some of the best fellas I know. They love Jesus. They have a passion to come alongside guys that many in the Christian community have a difficult time connecting with. Also, they are amazing creatives. I pray that the recent process and public heat placed on them because of the deadly viper episode doesn’t diminish their dreams and work. I know they put in thousands of dollars and man hours to produce a work that they hoped could literally save men’s lives and their marriages. They constantly take heat. Of course, heat is normal and sometimes deserved while doing creative work, yet it should also be common that our community knows how to be direct, yet civil and generous in our posture to those who have offended us.
While the images may have been offensive to some and uncomfortable to others, I know their intent was to actually try and honor Asians via illustrations and humor. These guys work with Asians. Asians helped in the creative process. In the future, my hope is that there is more grace in the way we communicate our opinions and the tactics we use. Of course, there were individuals who did, to you– thanks for showing us a better way.
The truth is, many conversations were going on that people were not aware of. The changes didn’t only happen because of the heat brought on by the blogs but the serious, civil, prayerful, conversations that many didn’t hear or were privy to. Perhaps what will be remembered is not the outcome of DV being taken off the shelves, but the way we communicated our opinions. Indeed, the pen is a powerful tool and so is our tone. It can be deadly or it can give life.
Dave,
Thanks for being a model of grace and wisdom that I aspire to model one day!
cecil
Dave – Thanks for weighing in. Your relationship with Mike & Jud and your work with Third Culture give you a unique perspective on all of this. As Eugene Cho (and many others) have said, hopefully Mike & Jud can bring back the positive content from DV in another way. The goal is not to “shut down” anything, but to work towards understanding and reconciliation.
I know much has already been written about this, but I want to echo something Helen Lee wrote in a very thoughtful, heartfelt blog post about her DV experience (and, which I believe speaks along the lines of your Third Culture work of personal pain leading to empathy): instead of reacting defensively or brushing off other’s pain, we should be quick to listen — less “get over it” and more “help me understand.”
It grieves me to see the backlash against people like Eugene Cho, Soong-Chan Rah and others. The level of anger, sarcasm and resentment has been startling. I’m continuing forward in prayer (and committed to work toward) transformation and reconciliation.
Dave:
I’m glad you mentioned tone. The whole time, the main thing that grieved me the most, was the tone and tempo. Harsh and fast.
Even now, after multiple public apologies, taking down the DV website, and promising to remove books from shelves… I’m hearing criticism of Mike and Jud. “By taking down the site they are trying to prove a point and make Asian Americans look like the bad guys.”
I’ve learned a lot and I am thankful for the good that has come out of this. I’m thankful that I am no longer oblivious to things that could cause Asian Americans hurt.
However, it is still very discouraging to see friends act with humility and vulnerability, and then still get crapped on.
peace | dewde
So true….these two gentlemen have touched many, many lives and have allowed those of us that have felt broken find our way back to the Lord with leadership that is to be strongly admired! God has a plan….and you can bet these two great leaders are in the forefront!
well put dave, glad they have a friend like you~
Dave,
thanks for sharing your thoughts…its nice to have someone share in such a thoughtful manner and exonerate those whose hearts were shattered at offending others…I dont know Jud but have met Mike several times and we have several close friends in common, thank you for stepping up and sharing…I do think that the Christian community lost on both ends in this…We lost great influences and lost in the LOVE column as well…There is a tinge of frustration in many of our hearts who believe that there are hundreds in ministry today walking whole and free because of the risk these two took…its shouldn’t be taken lightly…
Live Passionately,
Shane
Thanks for sharing your perspective on this issue. I totally agree that one of the big lessons to be learned is how the Church engages with the world and one another in a social media age.
I wonder, though, how to distinguish between disrespectful communication and frank criticism?
I think there were many examples of communication that were way out of line, especially for Christian leaders. But I do think a good majority of the communication was simply hard words being exchanged over an emotionally-charged, complex issue. The line is rather difficult to draw, especially in the blogosphere, but I wonder if sometimes we shy away from the natural tension of healthy conflict and short-circuit the process of reconciliation and mutual-understanding?
I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this issue!
Good Pastor G! I think we often forget that there is a conversation behind the scenes we are completely unaware of happening. Too often we read the blogs and listen to the stories that support our own bias. Far less frequently do we search for truth before weighing in and offering our thoughts. I’ve appreciated the dialogue between the DV guys and the Asian community. I’ve seen truth telling that is a model for reconciliation in the church.
You referenced the DV guys had Asians contributing the creativity of this project. Where can I get more information about that perspective? Have these Asian contributors spoken out on behalf of DV?
Jud and Mike’s book was a gift to me at Catalyst a few years ago. I quickly put it ahead of many other books because of their creativity. They went to a lot of trouble to make a difficult topic more engaging to men in our culture. I appreciate the great efforts they went to bring this important word to men like me who need to see the temptations in our world what they really are–deadly bait enticing me to disobey (James 1:13-15). God used DV in my life to strengthen my resolve to live blamelessly. And they did it with grace. I wish there had been more grace the other way. I pray that as a result of this that Mike & Jud will go back to the drawing board and create an even better display of creativity and truth. May God get the glory!
Great post.
Being an Asian-American pastor, I’m impressed with Zondervan’s handling of this. Can’t speak for bloggers as I kept my blogging thoughts silent on DV the last 2 years.
For what its worth, I believe the Google-Earth-view takeaway is centered on contextualization of the message.
Yes, the DV content is great. But the packaging got bungled.
Going forward, are we as movement leaders able to strive for greater awareness of contextualization blindspots?
[...] [update 11/19] Zondervan Statement Regarding Concerns Voiced About “Deadly Viper: Character Assassins” via @eugenecho’s Zondervan Pulls Deadly Viper from Stores and the Deadly Viper website shut down by authors Mike Foster and Jud Wilhite; Dave Gibbons’ thoughts [...]
Thanks for your words. I have to say that I am saddened by the events of late. I can see how the Asian community could be offended by the marketing. I never even thought of that and I have been exposed to DV for quite some time. What saddens me is it seemed like when these two men were under heat, more was piled on. The grace we so readily speak about was missing. It was almost as if the goal was to humiliate them to teach them a lesson. This saddens me.
thanks Dave…
many of you here have commented on other blogs regarding this topic… as have i.
let me start off by saying that the work that Mike and Jud have put together is extremely important and will be redeemed in a new way b/c it has obviously impacted many lives. Mike and Jud made a mistake, and they have exhibited great character throughout this whole ordeal.
i do not rebuke Mike and Jud.. i rebuke those who refuse to understand why this is an issue. I rebuke those that trivialize the concerns of a race of people, and catagorize it as a symptom of indigestion, oversensitivity, or moodiness. I rebuke those of you who show no willingness to learn about the greater issues in the world and the church concerning racial/ethnic diversity.
instead you try and justify the ends, despite the means… the means (inappropraite use of asian cultural themes and imagery) DO NOT justify the ends (distributing the otherwise great work by Mike & Jud). especially when the means CAN BE changed.
thanks to all the leaders who are striving to change our society… that is God’s heart.
[...] “While the images may have been offensive to some and uncomfortable to others, I know their intent wa…“ [...]
@Jonathan Herron – Thanks so much for not blogging about your offendedness for the past two years. If you had, thousands of men including myself and a group of my friends (including two AA men) might not have learned and applied the great content on character and integrity that was DV.
It grieves me that we now live in a time where everything must be palatable and “contextualized” to everyone. Christians taking offense is one of the worst plagues on the church today. If we could only model Christ:
1 Peter 2:23 – When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.
It just so happens I learned this in my DV men’s group a year ago…
i completely agree! well written!!!
it was so nice to read something that wasn’t so… “angry”. thank you!
Pastor Dave,
Thanks for your post. I’m glad to hear your thoughts. Thank you for sharing them here.
I did want to press about what the lasting legacy of this controversy will be–you mentioned that perhaps the tone will be the lasting legacy. But I would have to disagree.
Both the authors, and some of the bloggers involved, have posted reflective (and sometimes penitent) statements about their tone and things that they said. And some have asked for forgiveness. Both sides have made some mistakes, and both sides have owned up to that.
I think the lasting legacy of this will not be tone (which I agree can be deadly) but rather watching folks who “sinned against another” leave the offering at the altar, make amends, and then go on to worship God. It’s remarkable that Zondervan would take a costly action. And it’s remarkable that Mike and Jud were man enough to shut-down and redirect something. My respect for Mike and Jud increases, as it must be hard for Christian leaders (who influence thousands, tens of thousands) to make a significant course correction.
My respect for all involved has increased significantly. This could have gone much worse, with massive divisions between groups of people. While this path has not been the smoothest, at this point, I hope for restoration, transformation, and community.
I want to list what started all of this just to illustrate how petty I believe it to be. On Professor Rah’s blog, he writes:
“Recently, I received my copy of the Zondervan catalog. In one of the circulars, there was an advertisement for a book called Deadly Viper Character Assassins: A Kung Fu Survival Guide for Life and Leadership.
“So the ‘Kung Fu’ part got my attention, as well as the dragon on the cover and the Chinese characters. I guess I was hoping against hope that it was the story of an Asian-American Christian rather than another example of Asian culture being pimped out to sell products.”
—
First of all, before I share my thoughts, let me share this: I produced porn for 9 years. XXXChurch, co-founded by Mike Foster with Craig Gross, came along 5 years into it and spent the next 4 years loving me out of it. I’m now enrolled in a seminary program and I’ve spoken to more than 4 million people from around the world about what God has done in my life. I’m glad Mike and Craig spent their time evangelizing instead of looking for reasons to be offended.
Which is probably what some will do when they read my thoughts. Sorry if I’m not “politically correct”. Jesus used to tell his disciples they were idiots when they were idiots. He didn’t baby them. I insist on not babying anybody either.
Now… my thoughts are this: I think the good professor has too much time on his hands and is looking for something with which to find offense. Did he bother reading the material before beginning his crying?
As I’ve said on Facebook and in comments on Prof. Rah’s blog (and others), Kung Fu isn’t even exclusively Asian anymore. In my area, I don’t even know of a martial arts dojo of any sort that has an Asian “Sensei”. Because of the lack of Asians in the dojo, should Asian “characters” be removed? Shall we insist that all martial arts instructors be Asian?
Where shall the offense end?
Shall I take offense should Professor Rah ever write a book and illustrate it with an American Football (perhaps something like, “TACKLE Temptations and SCORE TOUCHDOWNS in your Spiritual Life”) or be offended if he wants to write a book on how to “Shoot Down Sinful Desires” should he illustrate said book with an F-16 (after all, we all know the relationship of the American-born Wright brothers and flying). He better not write about how “Not to Strike Out” and put a baseball/bat on the cover! God forbid! I might through a hissy fit with his publisher!
C’mon, Christians! Give up the right to be so easily offended. Especially if you’re a Christian in a position of leadership. Your skin should be MUCH thicker than that.
[...] their thoughts. You can read some written by Professor Soong-Chan Rah, Eugene Cho, DJ Chuang, Dave Gibbons and Kathy Khang. Then later I was quoted HERE by DJ Chuang… twice. I highly respect ALL [...]
Donny, I think you have a legitimate point, but I think you’re also missing a larger point.
And let me also preface this by saying that I’m familiar with XXXChurch and Mike Foster’s work with them, and I’m deeply grateful for it. I’m also familiar with your story and I am impressed by how willing you are to share it for the benefit of others.
I think it’s a good thing to exhibit caution when we as believers find something that we feel is offensive. I agree with what I think I hear you saying, which is that Professor Rah could have exhibited more grace in his initial blog post (and probably in his initial email exchange).
I think the larger point that you’re missing is that, if you haven’t grown up in the skin of a marginalized ethnic group (in this case, being Asian-American) you cannot appreciate the extent to which these images can be offensive, and therefore, you cannot be the arbiter of what is and isn’t an appropriate response to such offense.
Furthermore, you cannot equate ethnic imagery and/or stereotypes with sports or military images and stereotypes. Though they both are indicative of culture, they are both deeply interwoven and associated with what I would call (for lack of a better term) White American culture, which has been the dominant culture in our country since its inception.
The reason why no one would be offended by Prof Rah using a football analogy is, among other reasons, because no one has ever been enslaved, illegally detained, marched into internment camps, or been the target of mass genocide because they were football players.
However, the history of our nation (and, to a lesser extent, the world) has shown that people HAVE experienced those things, mostly at the hands of White people, because of their ethnic background.
If you haven’t grown up feeling THAT PARTICULAR kind of pain, then you are ill equipped to make judgments about whether or not someone like Professor Rah is thin-skinned.
Jelani,
Rather than repetitively typing the same things I’ve said elsewhere, I’ll just link you to a blog post by Eugene Cho, who is one of the people who “signed” a letter to Zondervan about this matter. I’ve posted numerous comments there:
http://eugenecho.wordpress.com/2009/11/20/to-mike-foster-and-jud-wilhite-and-the-leaders-of-zondervan-publishing/
Scroll down to the comments section.
Ironically, it would have been better for Mike Foster and Jud Wilhite if they had been objectified in the Deadly Viper controversy, but it appears they were mistakenly made the subject of the discussion.
If I understand all this correctly (and for the record, I am an ancillary vested person in this story, click here to read my own post re: all this), they touched a very sensitive nerve that (not only) the Asian American community has experienced in a “white captivity” culture—one that they have been grappling to put words to.
The tragedy is that rather than making the subject a conversation around cultivating sensitivity to humanizing all people regardless of race, culture or ethnicity, the tone and the target of these wounds were aimed at two guys who were actually contributing to a conversation towards integrity, character and the affirmation of human dignity for all persons.
I am a huge fan of Prof Rah and think his message needs to get out further to provoke a more grounded sense of our Christian identity as it relates to the shifting (actually, shifted) demographic in the mosaic of who actually makes up our Christian majority. But I am also a huge fan of what the Deadly Viper project was advocating for, not only in its content, but how the message of integrity, character and grace was embodied in the lives of Mike and Jud. It is sad how two important messages collided and the fallout that has been an unintended consequence of this collision.
Let’s hope that everyone who made hurtful or accusatory statements about Mike and Jud, reconsider the content and tone of those unfair allegations. Much of the content I’ve read in the comment sections on blogs regarding all this has been unhelpful assumptions. These assumptions have only aggravated a sensitive conversation that needs to be played out. However, this important conversation should be held around more harmful eruptions of cultural insensitivity (i.e. the “Rickshaw Rally”) that somehow are left immune to the controversy Deadly Vipers unintentionally invited.
Let’s also remember that Mike and Jud should not be the targets of this dialogue. If people want to pick fights here, there are plenty of other legitimate instances of racial insensitivity that are more important and appropriate instances that can be focused on.
A positive outcome from all this would be an overwhelming level of support for Mike and Jud as the move away from the packaging of Deadly Vipers to their People of a Second Chance movement. A platform they have created for others that now needs to be extended to them, especially by those who have been so accusatory in the ways they’ve dismantled an important voice of renewal for our shared humanity.
The essence of how I hope all this comes across speaks to the crucial need to humanize all people—the Asian American community and Mike and Jud. I think there’s a way that Prof Rah’s (and other’s) concerns can be, and need to be validated, but not at the expense of Mike and Jud—otherwise, the same thing that Deadly Vipers has been accused of will be done to them by those who are most concerned.
Overall, I believe this has been a sad eruption of anger around an important issue that seems to have been misdirected at two guys who have given themselves to a much-needed message of hope. I think resistance to “white captivity,” or the imposition of any dominant consciousness of our Christian expression needs to be fought against, but not at the expense of the reputation and content of men whose message resonates with this struggle from a different perspective.
*If you’d like to discuss this or comment on these thoughts please leave them here (http://www.chrisheuertz.com/post/257436160/further-reflections-on-the-deadly-viper-controvery)*